Service, Trust and the Power of Giving Back - Jonny Ball

Jonny Ball is the host of the ‘Veterans In Politics’ podcast, interviewing over 70 interviewees from across the globe who have ‘stood up to serve again'. He is also Founder of Campaign Force, a not for profit organisation that aims to inspire and support members of the military community to serve in public life. His civilian career has seen him run campaigns at every level of government, from local to National & European elections and as a consultant to military charities as well as a number of MPs.

His lengthy Army service includes operational tours of Northern Ireland and Afghanistan. In 2013, following a tour of Afghanistan the previous year, he was awarded a Commander Land Forces’ Commendation for his work as a Pashto Linguist and Intelligence Analyst. Following a traumatic RTA on his motorcycle in 2019, where it took 7 surgeries to save his leg, in September 2023, Jonny competed in the Invictus Games as part of Team UK as part of his own recovery journey through sport, and walked away with a Bronze medal in powerlifting, as well as personal bests in Indoor Rowing  and track cycling.

This is a wide ranging episode which coincides with the General Election in the UK on 4 July 2024. Jonny shares his motivations for inspiring military veterans into political life and we discuss the the concept of service more broadly. He also shares his personal story of recovery and reconnecting with his own purpose through sport and the community he found in the Invictus Games. 


Find more about Jonny and his work
@campaignforceuk on Instagram/Twitter/Facebook
@jonnyinvictus personal Instagram
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonnyball79/
CampaignForce: https://www.linkedin.com/company/campaignforce/

I hope you have enjoyed this episode of The Everyday Adventure Podcast! To keep up to date with the latest news, follow us:
Instagram: @everydayadventurepod @resilienceatwork
Linkedin: @Nicki-bass
Website: www.resiliencework.co.uk
TEDx: The Life Changing Power of Everyday Adventures
Email: nicki@resiliencework.co.uk

The Everyday Adventure Podcast is proud to be part of the Tremula Network of Adventure and Outdoor Podcasts
@tremulanetwork
https://www.tremula.network

Transcript

NICKI (00:03):

Hello and welcome to the Everyday Adventure Podcast. My name is Nikki Bass and I'm a business psychologist, army veteran, and everyday adventurer. I will be sharing my conversations with some truly incredible guests who are weaving adventure into their daily lives, and I really hope these conversations inspire you to undertake your own everyday adventures too.

(00:29):

So today I am really excited to welcome Johnny Ball to the show. Johnny is the founder of campaign force, which helps veterans get back into political life or find a way to, as he calls it, stand up and serve again to find a way to find purpose and meaning, and also contribute from their backgrounds into the political sphere as well. His civilian career has seen him run political campaigns at every level of government nationally and internationally. And as a reservist, he has served in Northern Ireland in Afghanistan, he's worked as an intelligent analyst and a past linguist and worked with local communities in Helmond as well as training the Afghan police. So in September, 2023, he competed in the Invictus Games as part of his own recovery journey through sport, and he walked away with a bronze medal in power lifting as well as PBS in indoor rowing and track cycling.

(01:26):

Now, I first met Johnny, as we've just been discussing quite a few years ago now. I think it's probably 11 or 12 years ago when I was responsible for overseeing the training and deployment of military linguists in 2012, and he was one of my linguists. So there's been quite a gap since then, but in recent years I've been following his new or latest career and his developments and the difference he's making in terms of connecting veterans and the political space with such interest and admiration. So I am absolutely thrilled that he's agreed to come on the show today and share a little bit more about his own journey. I know he's very used to interviewing very high profile guests as part of his own podcast, but this time he's on the other side of the fence and we are going to be finding a little bit more about Johnny and what motivates him and how he's got to this place where he is today as well. So Johnny, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here.

JONNY (02:24):

It's a pleasure to be here and actually, not to call you ma’am, but to call you Nicki. Am I allowed to call you Nicki?

NICKI (02:30):

You're allowed to call me Nikki. To be fair, even after 18 years in the Army, I still didn't like being called ma’am. It was the one thing that I was just like, it just feels so, yeah, probably people listening to him going, oh my god, Nikki, you still haven't changed since you were at Sandhurst. But yeah, yeah, very, very comfortable with Nikki and yeah, no, it's brilliant to reconnect after all this time as well. So I wondered, because obviously I'm conscious that you've had this really long and illustrious military career in terms of all the different things you've done and been engaged with over that time. And obviously you've had this parallel civilian career running alongside it too. But I suppose most recently you've become known for your work with veterans in politics and campaign force, and I just wanted just to get a sense of what's behind, what's motivated you in that space over recent years where you are trying to achieve, and yeah, get a little bit of sense of that background story too.

JONNY (03:34):

I think it's a genuine desire to serve and from your time at Sandhurst, that phrase serve to lead rings true for many people in our community, but you dunno if had to have gone to a military institution to really appreciate the desire to serve and that can be in your communities, it could be in a youth group volunteering as a scout leader, I really don't care. I think all of us within us has a desire to do some level of service because the things you get back from helping others, that feeling how that helps you as an individual and if we can bottle that up and sell it, it would be worth absolutely millions. So I think that's the key driver for me. It's the driver that got me to join at the age of 17. It's the driver that forced me to put my hand up and serve in Afghanistan whilst I'd lost a friend of mine got really badly injured and I lost a school friend in Iraq.

(04:30):

So that sense of service and helping others is the key driver. And I've used that in my civilian life because I've served in politics in my professional career working from MPS and in local government and I've looked around and I've seen those that aren't necessarily wired up the same as many of us from the Armed forces community. And I've just thought, well this community of so much potential to serve and that phrase I use as you've mentioned is stand up and serve again because I think it's locked within our very being and within our DNA and it's driven me in everything that I do.

NICKI (05:05):

That's fascinating. I was just thinking about that point about service as well and in a way linking it back because I think I would say that politics is not something, well, capital P is not something we typically talk about on this podcast. Obviously it's more focused on outdoors and adventure, but I think certainly over the last six seasons, obviously we're now into season seven. The themes that have come through that we've discussed, I would say are intensely political themes around inclusion and accessibility and who has the right to access which spaces, how do people from all different backgrounds and with all different abilities feel free to participate into so much that's around them in terms of the countryside and the open spaces and that side of things, which is part of the reason I think I was really keen to speak to you as well because I think that point about service is also very much embedded.

(06:02):

I'm thinking of all the previous guests I've spoken to and often people are acting even if not in service from a political perspective, they're acting. What often drives us is that sense of purpose, feeling like we're in service of something and in terms of this podcast, acting in the service of encouraging people to sort of embrace what's out there and in terms of their own possibilities and their own lives and seeing the world around them in a slightly different way. And I think it's really interesting because I suppose that point about services sort of widened for you maybe in terms of opening up possibilities for you. And I just wondered how that connection comes through for you.

JONNY (06:48):

And politics is genuine service. Unfortunately people don't trust politicians. Ipsos Mori did a poll in 2019 and the gap between, so for example, the armed forces community had an 81% trust rating, which is pretty high, right? Genuine values driven, service driven people, politicians were at the bottom of that poll. I think just a 14% trust rating. So there's a trust gap in our politics. So I think through genuine service driven people, we can help close that gap. And that's what I've set out to do with campaign force because I looked around from my own anecdotal experience of running MPS campaigns, European elections, general elections, local government elections. I saw unfortunately there were people that weren't motivated by service and they're the wrong people in politics, they exist across party. So therefore that gives us an opportunity if we can strategically tap into that as businesses done, they've recognised the skills, values and transferable experience of veterans within business.

(07:52):

Well why not our wider societal institutions too? So I don't care where people end up serving. It could be in local government for any political party. It could be as I said in a youth group, but if we can strategically tap in the motivate those people to stand up and serve again, then our communities are going to be better places. And that has extended in sport as well. I've seen that through the Invictus movement that people are back serving again. They've got the union flag on their chest, they're representing something that's bigger than themselves because when you are going through recovery, it can all become often a little bit, you are in your own kind of narrow view of your recovery. It's all very inward looking, but when you go into a movement, a community movement like the Invictus family, all of a sudden you're part of something bigger than yourself and that is linked to a genuine notion of service. So I would really implore people from our community or from any of service driven communities, don't just leave that when you hang up the uniform as I'm just about to do, getting medically discharged from the Army reserves, that's not the end of service. It's just a chapter in the service that can continue, it can overlap in other elements of your life.

NICKI (09:11):

And it's so interesting because I know that's from speaking obviously to so many people who've left the forces that that's something that they feel in a way no matter which job they've gone into. It's something that often people are trying to replicate or feeling like they've lost. And I think even more broadly than the armed forces, I know so many people who are sort of questioning their career midlife because they've gone into something at quite a young age often and work because they've been good at it, work their way through and sort of climbed the ranks in whichever business or organisation and they get to a certain point and then go, what am I doing this for? I've sort of lost touch with the bits of me that was initially connected to whatever role I'm doing. And I feel like you said that sense of what's the wider purpose? What's my wider purpose? Why am I here? I mean they're all very big questions, but I think it's so interesting. I think it often happens at a point of transition, like you said, leaving a particular role or lifestyle, but I think it also can be related to age transition as well of that sense of, dare I say it mortality, a sense of, okay, if I'm going to be carrying on working or engaging with the wider world for however many years, how do I want to show up? What matters to me, what's important to me?

JONNY (10:40):

And as a parent of a proud parent of a three and a half year old girl, it's been fascinating looking at her behaviours and just to I've one aspiration that's just for her to be kind and linked to that is their desire to help other people. So to see her helping other people, helping us around the house, that's where service starts. That lesson that we can, our responsibility as parents to younger people to pass on that notion of helping other people. That is the seed of service and you don't necessarily have to put on a uniform. Obviously I'm an evangelist for those that do and how we can tap into that as a strategic asset in our country. And I try and do that through trying to sort out the mess that is our politics and closing that trust gap. However, in our everyday lives in our families, sow the seeds of service just from our behaviours and that also comes to how we behave as individuals too.

(11:33):

And with the veteran brand, the veteran brand can be lost, all won. I've mentioned that people trust us in this country, which is fantastic. The forces community is really high, but that comes with a certain responsibility how we behave online and in person. We are carrying that brand or veteran with us into our communities in the same way that we, because we are the next generation, the second world war generation, love them. There's very few of those. They're the ones that we grew up with as children then the Falklands war generation, they're now retired. So it's us, it's the Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghan generation of working age adults that kind of have that mantle of the brand veteran within our grasp. And we have to live a lived values and a lived sense of service in order to really, it's a lot of responsibility, but hold up that brand of veteran in this country and you can only do that in your deeds and actions.

NICKI (12:29):

It's fascinating, isn't it, because I think there's also quite a challenge around the concept or the wording in a way of veteran that we have this idea of what and who a veteran is. I know it's something I very much steered away as a description of myself when I left regular service because I felt like you said to me it brings to mind somebody who served in the second world war and is usually an older man who is, that's the image that comes to mind. And it felt like that doesn't fit this idea of who I am at this stage in my life. And it felt quite, I think there's something that felt quite static or in a way troubling around that terminology. I think like you said, there's that and I think more and more people obviously as there's more and more of us coming through and the generations move on, I think that terminology is shifting. But I think there is still quite particularly, I know for female veterans, there's quite a troubling association sometimes between what that means and how visible you then become.

JONNY (13:38):

We've been looking at schools for Margot recently and my wife asked a question of one of the teachers, oh, do you do anything for remembrance? And the teacher's response was, yeah, we go into an old people's home and I'm stood there really depressed by that. So we've got some work to do in society. I think we need to take ownership of the word veteran, unless there's a better word. People can use whatever words they want, but I think veteran, it's simple, it's clear, let's take ownership of it and as part of our own, not all of our brand, but as part of our personal brand. So let's take it forward and in doing so we'll change perceptions like that school teacher I've mentioned. Otherwise it'll be left to others to decide for us. And I think we need to. And I think in terms of the generations as well, so the Falkland's war generation, I was in London over remembrance and seeing all the South Atlantic Medal Association guys, and I used the word guys because mostly male, I know not all are, but mostly with their scarves around their neck that distinguishes them as part of the South Atlantic Medal Associations, Faulkland war veterans, 30,000 of those 150,000 of us served in Afghanistan and the diverse women on the front line, commonwealth troops from all over the world, reservists, regulars, Navy, army, air Force, the diverse mix that now become veterans of Afghanistan is night and day from perhaps those that served in the Falklands and there are more of us as well.

(15:05):

So that gives us an opportunity to actually challenge the perceptions around what it means to be a veteran, the brand veteran, because the nature of a veteran is very different from previous generations. So I think it'll take some time, but it starts with us. We've got to take ownership of that. And in our world, whether it be in business or sport or adventure pursuits or politics, wherever it may be, take ownership of it and be a great ambassador for that word.

NICKI (15:35):

Yeah, I was just thinking as you were saying that around, I think there can also often be a perception, it was as you were talking about, I suppose the diversity in terms of all of those people who did serve in Afghanistan. And obviously there are much more complicated narratives around the Afghan campaign than there are potentially around the Falklands, which gets reduced even though it is complex too often gets reduced in people's mind probably because of distance in terms of time, but also because of I guess the public perception at the time. But I think that there is a danger that from because of the dominant narratives around who's served, why they've served the typical history, that again, our idea of who a veteran is, who people who have served in the forces gets reduced to a single image or even from a political perspective, a single type of political persuasion or having a fixed set of views that everybody ascribes to.

(16:49):

And I love the point you make about actually embracing that diversity in terms of the types of people and the types of roles that people have carried out. And also the complexities involved that I know personally so many friends and colleagues wrestle with constantly around the nature of the campaigns they've been involved with and about the nature of modern warfare as well. And yeah, try to encapsulate that I guess is much harder than it is to just the more common, I guess tropes around second World war or around those sort of common things that we're supposed to all rely around in terms of remembrance, but actually reflecting maybe where the country is more nowadays too. And the diversity within that is a really interesting place to explore

JONNY (17:37):

And nce curiosity in our communities to ask about if you are on remembrance and you've got your medals on or you go into a school, explain what they are because each of those have stories and have relationships and friendships that you can talk about in each one of those medals. So you might not have any medals at all. It might be a regimental headdress. I really don't mind what it is, but it starts a curiosity and conversation around what it is to be a veteran. But the diversity angle is really important too because we all know what, we could probably draw a picture of a World War II veteran, but I think that becomes far more challenging when we talk about working age veterans of this country in 2023 and beyond. So I think, yeah, let's just grasp that mantle and that's why I love doing what I do with storytelling.

(18:24):

So storytelling through my podcast, veterans in politics tells the stories of those and they don't in political interviews, we kind of again are what's a politician that has a brand connotation linked to that. But I hope what I do with my podcast through the shared sense of service having worn uniform, they kind of remove their barriers. They're not talking to an Andrew Marr or a Nick Robinson, they're just talking to me, a fellow service person so that they drop their guard a little bit and they reveal a little bit more of their human side, their military story. It creates a rapport and a bond. And then in doing so, hopefully you can challenge a little bit around the brand politician and at the same time talk about what it means to be a veteran in UK civil society and beyond. Because I've interviewed Australian veterans in politics and Canadians and Americans too, and there's some commonalities there.

(19:15):

Every single conversation, I go back to that point around service that really runs as a golden thread through the stories. So I think whatever we're doing, you might be working in retail or you might be working for a big four consultancy and if that's part of your story, your brand and your narrative, there are times where you can really represent us well, but that does come with some responsibility and otherwise we're doing a disservice to the previous generations, be they Falklands or Second World War, those generations we looked up to because the next generation, I've got a news flash for you, they're looking at us, those younger guys and girls serving, now we are their people that they're looking to. So let's take ownership of that. But with that comes great responsibility.

NICKI (20:00):

Sounds like a film, doesn't it? Yeah. I wanted to just pick up on that thread, but moving to the point you made about storytelling and I think your own story as well because I think there's something very, I want to use the word aligned, but in terms of the journey that you've been on over particularly the last four years and in terms of how you've ended up at the Invictus Games in all of these different sports, can I just say that do not seem to be related and I'm just like even one of those sports would be quite a big challenge and you've managed to cut across a whole different range of activities. But you mentioned right at the start this whole idea of using sport as recovery and a way of reflecting and reflecting on service as well. And I just wondered if you could share a little bit more about that, about the Invictus Games, about your journey to that, I guess your own everyday adventure in terms of embracing this, this type of challenge.

JONNY (21:04):

And it really has been my everyday adventure because when you commit yourself to an event and some of you listening now might commit to a sponsored walk or something and you've got to commit some training to that and that habitual nature of fitness. So for me, when I put my hand up, and it was really interesting actually because all of a sudden I came became someone that kind of helps others in the veterans community to someone receiving help. So that was an interesting transition of being the beneficiary of a charity, the Royal British Legion and the Invictus whole journey and process. But it's one I was glad that I got over pretty quickly, but every day I had an adventure to face and that was the habitual nature of training. And you mentioned the three different sports of indoor rowing. I was the indoor rowing captain powerlifting, so I was used to that from going on tour and you do lots of weightlifting and things when you're not on patrol in Afghanistan.

(21:57):

And the last sport, which was cycling Now that was a big adventure because it's something I used to enjoy before, but the nature of my accident in 2019 was a motorcycle accident four years ago where I nearly lost my leg and naturally comes with that, a bit of a phobia about getting back on two wheels. So through the Invictus Adventure I was able to really face that fear, not only just face it but excel and compete on an international stage with the union flag on my chest once again and to get there, it's that everyday habitual thing. And that's linked to some of the therapy that I've experienced through cognitive behavioural therapy and some of the habits in your daily life. And for me that constant has been sport. So I train pretty much every day now because it is an everyday habit that I need to keep within my life.

(22:46):

It manages my mental state, it manages obviously my physical state and it's just fun. I just love it, whatever it is. And I didn't think I'd ever say that about indoor rowing, the “vomit comet” as we call it. But I love it. So I just think it's been a real journey for me having done physical activity for a job because you needed to or you were told to. I now do it out of choice and out of necessity, these are kind of non-negotiables for me in order for me to then show up for my business or political life because that constant everyday habitual nature and it might simply be walking the dog, I've been poorly late, you have a chest infection. So that's really disrupted that everyday habit. So getting out there, doing something every day, even if it's small, is really important. And sometimes just sometimes ordinary people can end up in extraordinary circumstances like the Invictus Games where you are stood there on the stage getting presented a bronze medal by a Victoria Cross holder from New Zealand whilst you're gazing out with the union flag on your shoulders at your wife and your little girl.

(23:55):

And that memory will stay with me every day and beyond. So the Invictus has been just a cherry on top of a pretty rubbish cake of four years of overcoming trauma physically and mentally. But it all starts with what are those things that you need to do every day in order to help you with your life.

NICKI (24:21):

Yeah, I think it's so important that point you made about, like you said, that often what we see is that image in a way. You're talking about the standing on the stage and the medals and the isn't it all wonderful, the fact that you shared actually that the journey leading up to that has not necessarily been a wonderful journey in terms of what I would imagine without wanting to put words in your mouth at all. But there've been highs and lows along at that point. And as you said, what started that journey in a way was not something that you would wish on anybody in terms of your accident,

JONNY (25:01):

But it happened. And the same with our operational medals. So operational medals and Invictus medals and Winston Churchill said that medals shine, but they also cast a shadow. So beneath some of those are shadows and it's being aware of that and it's the incumbent upon us all to try and make them shine. And that comes from our actions and now it goes back to that responsibility of owning our brand and who we are and keeping that shine. But sometimes they need a bit of a polish and that polish can come from help through cognitive behavioural therapy or from a sense of community or just getting yourself in the gym or entering that sponsored walk, whatever it is that will help maintain the shine of that medal, whatever that metaphor is for you. But yeah, the medals bit was great, but it was what was beneath all of that, that was key to my recovery.

(25:55):

And I found that through sports, I've also found that through community and I've found that through creative outlets such as podcasting have really helped me recover from the darknesses of a mental health injury, from nearly losing my leg, seven surgeries over four years, infections, lockdown coinciding with having our first child working for myself and not getting any furlough money. We hadn't been self-employed for long enough and losing my sister to cancer five years ago, all these things came along. But then what came along as well was the joy of discovering the adventure through sport. And that's been my saviour alongside my amazing family. So there is a way of maintaining the shine of the medals that life gives you.

NICKI (26:42):

And I was just thinking there's in the acknowledgement of those shadows, that those shadows exist, that then to have the courage to do that in the first place I think can be the most challenging part for people. As you said that also that there is something, there's something really unsexy but really vital about your point about, sorry, not about your point, but about this point around consistency that actually often when we think of, again, going back to this point of the medal, at the end, we see the outcome as being as a result of huge talent or of just luck or amazing things happening to amazing people sort of thing. Whereas I think to go back to your point actually the showing up every day, the recognising the one, acknowledging that you need the support, but then recognising the things that you do to help you need to be done consistently and need to be prioritised, I think can be really hard for people. I think it's the, because there is, yeah, often we will show up for things on days that we really don't feel like showing up for them and just putting that one foot in front of the other is in a way the bit that keeps you going as much as or if not more than the outcome at the end of it, whatever that may be. Because I guess we're not in control of that in the end anyway.

JONNY (28:14):

No, we're not. And it's a really weird one because a lot of it's about you individually and indeed the Invictus slogan is I am, but actually behind the i is the we and you have a moment stood there on a stage on your own with a medal around your neck, but you then look around, I look down, saw my teammates screaming my name, that community, the Invictus family, my coaches, the Royal British Legion, I looked across and saw my little girl and my wife and without the we, I couldn't be the me because they have that sense of community that you have wrapped around you. And again, we're advantaged in the armed forces community because we have this special community, a kind of community that will get in a car and drive across the country to be with you no matter what. If you need that help.

(29:02):

And I can list lots of people that would do that for me and I'd hope that we can spread that message across wider UK society because we need a little bit more of that. But it's really important that we do acknowledge our own achievements and it comes that habitual nature of showing up, getting up in morning, getting into the gym. But once I'm there, I've got coaches who are there at six 30 checking in on me. I've got the WhatsApp community from the Invictus lot, and you're sharing the victories or the struggles of that day and they might be miles away, but they're still offering you advice and encouragement. So yes, might be sat there on a row machine on your own or under a bench press on your own thinking what am I doing here at six 30 in the morning? But it's actually the wraparound community and we are lucky to have that through the third sector, through the Royal British Legion and the Invictus Games Foundation, things like that. But it's the family, it's the friends, it's the coaches, and then yes, it manifests in the I am at the end. And it's that balance of acknowledging that it's okay to be a little bit selfish and celebrate your own achievement and be proud of your own achievement, but at the same time acknowledge that none of that can be possible without a community wrapped around you too.

NICKI (30:21):

I'm so vital as well because I think that, I talk about this a lot in my work, that we exist in a culture that is very individualistic, that is very much about you should be shouting about your achievements, which is not, as you rightly point out, is not a bad thing in itself. And absolutely we need to celebrate what we do manage, particularly when it's as a result of or in spite of alongside challenging circumstances. I think it's when that becomes a pressure that we should be, no matter what's happened to us, we should still be able to stand up and keep striving for excellence all this time. And it's all down to us as individuals rather than as you said actually when you have the support, when you have a team around you, when you can ask for help, then actually that's where the resilience comes from.

(31:15):

That's where, that's the bit that keeps you going when you feel like you can't because actually you're not having to do it alone. And I think it's not recognised enough in terms of when we do celebrate achievements, I always find it really fascinating. I think it it's with when you really listen to interviews from the people who could do the Tour de France or any sort of particularly cycling for some reason, and they're always really dull at the end of the race because the interviewer will be like, so what have you done to get to you this place and wanting to know all about them and it's amazing people. And they'll go, right, well, so the team did this, the team did that, the team, and it's not a very exciting interview, but it's so fundamental to their performance because what they're saying was actually, I'm the bit that you see, but this is a team effort.

(32:04):

The only reason I'm here is because of all of these other people who have enabled me to be in this place. And I think it's a really powerful lesson that it might not be the most exciting place to go, but like you said, it's the building blocks of where we are. I'm just wondering as well, given that you had the Invictus in September 23, and I can imagine that must have been such an incredible experience to be part of. So looking out to 2024 and not wanting to say you need to do more than that clearly because three sports is a lot, but thinking in terms of your plans going forward, I mean what is in the pipeline for you? What's next?

JONNY (32:45):

I think it's a rekindled belief and I'd lost my belief. I'd lost my mojo, I'd lost my belief in myself. A lot of that is also once you go through therapy, of course you discovered this is ingrained in childhood social economic backgrounds coming from a working class background and the kind of belief of from school university wasn't really a discussion in my first school. It was only a teacher that gave me a belief, told me he believed in me. That got me to a sixth form where a discussion with university was normalised and of course that resulted in going to university and getting a degree. So that sense of belief, and I think that journey of belief has been a continuum through it suffered a knock back through injury. I lost a sense of self-belief and how I've regained that belief from sport. Sports recovery has been critical for that.

(33:41):

But then so what's next? I think I've now applied that sense of belief and it's a fine line in terms of self-belief where it then becomes a bit arrogant or diluted or deluded or that lack of belief continue and falling on the other side of it. So things are fine balance, but I know that every time I'm feeling a bit down about what I'm working on or about life or even if I'm in a workout in the gym in CrossFit, the core thing, the first point would be do I believe in myself at that moment?

(34:18):

And that's a common factor. So I think for me, I've got a rekindle sense of belief that kind of goes against social and economic backgrounds that are ingrained upon us from childhood and beyond that you get in the military, you get a sense of belief. So it's always going forward. And then I've lost it, got it back. So for 2024 and beyond, I'm looking at the games in 2025 in Vancouver Whistler. So we'll see what happens there. It's going to be highly competitive by put my hat in the ring, I'm about to launch a national charity with some very esteemed colleagues that will focus on the outcomes of this golden generation of veterans from Afghanistan and where we sit in civil society whilst continuing the work of campaign force, my not-for-profit to try and close that trust gap between the belief that people have in the armed forces and the lack of belief they have in our politicians.

(35:14):

So that's my main focus is working within the third sector. And I also consult for military charities. So I work for the charity mission Motor Sport, and we're looking at creating more based on the work of mission automotive and mission renewable sector initiatives so we can really shape the ground within specific industries for veterans and reservists and their families to come in and take up opportunity and really leaning like I do with politics on this strategic asset that we have in our country and all of that, all those conversations, high level conversations and getting up and getting in the gym comes from a sense of belief. And I just think that we need to tell people that we believe in them sometimes. When was the last time Nikki, someone said to you, I believe in you.

NICKI (36:06):

Yeah, that's a really good question. Yes. Now you've got me speechless. I'm trying to think when was, I was thinking in my head, I'll come back to that in a minute because it was making me think I will answer your question. This is me avoiding, but sorry,

JONNY (36:22):

I know you're asking me the

NICKI (36:23):

Question. I was about to say I'm very uncomfortable being on this having the roll top like this. No, what I was thinking as you were saying that I was thinking of Mark, this is something I often discussed with my kids as well and my family is that when I was at school, I remember my parents were going to parents evening, I think I was probably about 14, and I was like, whatever you do, don't go speak to the French teacher, do not speak to the French teacher. They had a choice about who they could talk. She's just going to say, I'm absolutely terrible. I'm rubbish. Don't let you go. No hair. And then of course my parents did the exact opposite, went straight for the French teacher and I go, please don't do this. And she said, you know what? I think she's got something.

(37:02):

I think this is with a little bit more confidence, she's got a real ear for languages. And I went on to do a degree in French and obviously as you know, spent a lot of my career working in languages. And if it hadn't been for that French teacher saying, you know what, I think there's something there when I was just like, oh my God, it is my worst subject, then my path would've been completely different. And I think to your point about how often it's, we think it's the really big things that install or instill a sense of I can do this, but often it's those really small comments or role models or something. You see something or it relates to you or somebody just happens to say something at that moment, at the right moment that makes you think, oh, well maybe it's possible. Maybe I'm not as terrible at this as I think I am. And I think that that's translated throughout my life so often it is just someone saying, yeah, my husband's really good at it. He'll often say to me, of course you've got this. And he'll be like, why are you even doubting yourself in this? Come on. Yeah, look, all these things have done takes exactly, it takes people, it takes people.

JONNY (38:20):

And I have very similar experience, Mr. McGee, I'm sure he's one of your listeners, but

NICKI (38:25):

I hope so.

JONNY (38:26):

But I was 15, my brother's actually recounted this story to him. I'm really grateful it's fed back to loop back around to him. But at the age of 15, having him say to me, he believed in me and no one had really said that before. And it just gave me the conversation around sixth form about those choices and where that would lead to. And without him I wouldn't be sat here having done what I've done with my life, but it took that moment and who knows, you might be the person that sees something. And I went to judgey school debating competition a couple of weeks ago and I was able to, from the evidence that I'd seen in front of me, these amazing six formers, I was able to stand there, talk about some of my own sense of fears that I encountered, the fears that they'd encountered from going up and debating in front of an audience and I was one of the judging panel, but to actually say what I've seen today, the evidence I believe in you and who knows, who knows?

(39:23):

It might just give someone that isn't feeling particularly confident about themselves, a little bit of a boost. And I hope as a parent I will encourage and also at the same time coach, we are aware something isn't going quite right for my little girl. It's just to realign her and give her the support, but there will be something that will be unfolded. That sense of belief and that sense of belief is what Invictus gives us. I saw it across 550 athletes across 21 different nations and we were all there believing in each other everywhere. It's a weird situation where you've got your kind of opposition as it were believing in you. And to experience those moments of joy and kindness has given me a rekindled sense of belief and that means that I can go on and do some great things in my family, my relationships and my work life too. So with time, if you see something in someone, it might be in your workplace, it might be in your family, and just saying that you believe in them will give them that boost, but it's again, it's a fine line to going overconfident and so you need to keep people on track and that comes through mentorship and guidance.

NICKI (40:32):

No, amazing. It brings me quite nicely onto my last question as well, which you've sort of answered, but I think in a way turning the tables of what we can do for ourselves. So if somebody's listening to this and they think, do you know what? I'd like to find that sense of belief or I would like to find a way to my own adventure, whatever that looks like, I mean, what's the one piece of advice you'd give them?

JONNY (40:59):

Just be open-minded, try and remove the shackles of what society or what is perceived as your place. Oh no, you don't look like a rower. Why are you rowing? You don't look like a powerlifter. You're not big enough. And I've seen that with some of my friends that tried powerlifting for the first time, but absolutely fell in love with it and they got their own small victory. It wasn't setting world records, but they loved the sport of power lifting. So if you can, that's your starting point. Get over perceived notions of your place. You don't come from a political class. Politics isn't for you. You don't come from a public school or you don't become an officer or you go to university. Obviously I didn't, I want to be an officer, but it didn't work out for me for medical reasons actually. So whatever the barriers are there ingrained from societal or expected from you or people tell you, so the opposite of not believing in you, then just say to yourself, well why not me?

(42:05):

Why can't I represent my community in local government and I've identified a problem in my community, I'm going to stand up and serve again and I'm going to be a local counsellor. All but no one's political in your family. You haven't done that before. What skill? You've not done it before. These are the type of people that it rubbish. So if you start and raise those kind of preconceived barriers and then take that to the next level, which is a sense of belief and believe you can do it because you, your example will be what others will see and you'll inspire people. You might never hear about it, but they'll see your example and they'll identify with that. They'll say, oh, that person's a little bit like me or even not like me at all. I've been inspired particularly by women coming back from childbirth recently to see how they've got back into fitness and that's really inspired me. So you can inspire people, but that comes from that first step of not accepting, I haven't accepted, I can't do sport because of my injury, but I've adapted and then you believe. So I would really say just believe and believe in yourself. It sounds really cheesy, but you've got to because no one else. Sometimes people won't tell you they believe in you. So you've got to believe in yourself and if you can tell others that you believe in them too

NICKI (43:25):

Amazing. I think I could go off a whole other conversation all around that too, but I am going to leave it there. Johnny, it's been amazing. If people want to find out more about the work you do about the podcast, where can they go?

JONNY (43:39):

So do look up Veterans in Politics by Campaignforce on YouTube, on all good podcast providers if those who want to stand up and serve again or just get some advice, I'll talk to anyone about getting involved in politics from local level up. Then you can go to www.campaignforce.co.uk

 and if you want to see me, my friends and phone contact me with my top off often in CrossFit, then go to my Instagram at Johnny Invictus where I put all my fitness stuff, that's where that lives away. And I love a bit of LinkedIn as well, so do look me up on LinkedIn, but do stand up and serve again.

NICKI (44:14):

Amazing. Thank you Johnny. And we'll pop all those links in the show notes as well so people can go and find you and find out all about the work that you are doing and hopefully, like I said, you'll have inspired a few people to connect and find out how they can follow your path and find a way to serve again as well. It's been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for your time and yeah, wishing you all the very best for 2024 going ahead as well. Thank you and I believe in this show. Thanks Johnny. Bye. So an enormous thank you to Johnny for coming on this show. Obviously, as I said at the start, this is slight departure from our usual outdoor adventure themed guests, but I think a really important topic to think about in terms of service, in terms of how we contribute, which as I mentioned is something that comes through from so many of our guests who feature on this show and really well timed I think given that today, this is published on election day here in the UK and last week we had Armed Forces Week as well.

(45:21):

So cushioned as this is between the two of them. I think I wanted to reflect back on I guess my own concept of service potentially and why I was drawn to the Army, which was an unusual career choice for me at the time. And I'm often questioned, what drew you to the army? Why did you join? And if you'd asked me at university, it would've been the last thing that I would've told you I would've ended up doing. But I think for me, that concept of giving and of service in the sense of making a difference, that has always been something that's really powerful for me and that's why I love the work that Johnny's doing because I think it's also a theme for not just veterans, although I know it's something that veterans tend to wrestle with when they leave sort of formal military service, but I think it's something that many people, the majority of people, whether you volunteer in your volunteering, working with kids, or whether it's raising money by completing marathons or big expeditions, these are all forms of service in the end.

(46:31):

I think it's important to shine a light on that and to say that actually it's often where I see the good in humanity, it's the thing that's usually for me, gives me hope when things are feeling quite dark in terms of what's going on in world events or when I'm not sure, even of my own opinions of things, knowing that there are people who are giving of themselves and going out trying to make a difference in whatever capacity that is and in a way that contributes to something broader than themselves, I think is really powerful in terms of our resilience as well. And I think it's really interesting, one of the NHS five day mental health five days “give to others” and I think there are such huge benefits and there's research to show that there are such huge benefits that are derived for both ourself and for others when we take on a position of service.

(47:31):

So I'd love to know your thoughts on of that. I'm aware that was a little bit a stream of consciousness, but I would love to know what you think, how you think about service, how you manage that within your own lives, what you do. If you've got any thoughts on anything that you've covered in the show or about what I've just been talking about, please do reach out to me. I would love to hear from you. So you can find me on Instagram Resilience at Work or Everyday Adventure Pod. You can find me on LinkedIn, Nikki Bass, you can go to my website resilience work.co.uk. And I will be back in a couple of weeks with some more amazing guests for you and I really look forward to speaking to you then. Take care. Bye.