Creating Community & Being an Expert Beginner - Soraya Abdel-Hadi

Soraya Abdel-Hadi is the founder of All the Elements, a community working to increase diversity in the outdoors. Her passion for the outdoors stemmed from childhood and she has carried this through her career ever since. After working as an equestrian journalist, she left in 2014 to study Sustainability in Business. Through her work as a sustainability professional, writer and artist, she aims to help as many people as possible to find their own connection with nature, motivating them in turn to protect it. She also offers coaching, facilitation and consultancy through her business Soraya Earth.

This is a far reaching conversation covering Soraya's motivation for starting All the Elements and the unexpected benefits she has experienced through building a connected space for individuals and organisations who are working to diversify the outdoors. We also explore the challenges of being fully present and the deep joy that can be found in being a beginner.

To find out more about Soraya and her work visit:

https://www.alltheelements.co/

https://www.soraya.earth/

Instagram: @alltheelements_

Twitter: @sorayaearth

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Transcript

NICKI: 00:00 Hello and welcome to the Everyday Adventure Podcast. My name is Nicki Bass and I will be bringing you thoughts, ideas, and stories from some incredible guests to hopefully inspire you to live more adventurously in your everyday lives.

00:24 So today I am really excited to welcome Soraya Abdel Hadi to the show. Soraya is founder of All the Elements, which is a community which is working to increase diversity in the outdoors. Her passion for the outdoors stem from childhood and she has continued to develop it throughout her life and her career. She worked originally as an equestrian journalist and then left in 2014 to study sustainability in business and now works as a sustained, I can't even speak, sustainability professional, a writer and an artist. And she really is driven to help as many people as possible to find their own connection with nature, with the aim that that will also help them to want to protect it. She now works as a coach, a facilitator, and has her own consultancy, Soraya Earth. And I've been following Soraya for a number of years on Instagram stalking her, which I'm sure she'll be delighted to hear at this point.

SORAYA: 01:15 It's

NICKI: 01:15 So exciting when people are following you like, who the hell is this person? But anyway, so I'm really excited to have her on the show. We were connected via my editor, lovely Fran Turauskis, who also hosts on the outside podcast, which re has contributed to. So it's really nice when those connections start coming together. And I've got the opportunity now to speak to for this podcast too. So welcome. It is really lovely to have you here.

SORAYA: 01:42 Thank you for having me. That was a really lovely intro too, so thank you so much.

NICKI: 01:48 It's a pleasure. As you can tell, I'm a fan and I'm very excited to have you here. And I just wondered, just to get started, I mean mentioned a little bit in the intro there about your passion for outdoors and some of the drivers for setting up all the elements, but I just wondered where did the motivation come from, I guess to switch careers to try something different and then to set up that community as well?

SORAYA: 02:14 That's a really great question. I've changed careers quite a lot in my life. I don't think I have ever been necessarily wedded to doing one thing forever. It apparently doesn't suit me at all. I think that's what I'm learning about myself. But actually the move to all the elements was completely unplanned and unexpected. There was a pushback from myself on it. Do I actually want to do this? Is this the way I want to go? Originally I was actually just looking to join a network, all the elements, that was the plan. So I started contacting people saying who were working within the space, talking about in the outdoors, and I contacted them saying, hi, I see you're doing what I'm doing. Where do you talk to other people who are doing this? And they all replied saying, oh, we don't, but we would like to.

03:17 That seems like a really good idea. And I always say I had alarm bells going off because at the time I had a very busy and demanding job, but it felt like there was a need. So I set it up originally to be a newsletter. That was the plan anyway. But what I discovered was that the people who I was trying to reach out to, essentially what I wanted is everyone to send their news to me. All the people who are working across all the different diversity areas send their news to me and then I would just send it out and my background before everything else is in journalism. So I thought that would be easy. I could just edit some text and send it back out into the world, no problem. But the people working in this space are really busy. They didn't know me, they didn't really know what I was all about. Why would they put their time into doing something like that without knowing me? So I started doing these one-on-one calls and then on those calls people would say, oh yes, while we are here, do you know about funding? Do you know about training for this? Do you have any suggestions for this? Is there anyone else doing this? And I started to realise that actually I was making the network without realising I was making the network. And so that's kind of how we formed.

NICKI: 04:36 Amazing. It's so interesting, isn't it, how you can start with that sort of one idea or like you said, not even an idea in a way, just going, actually I want to connect with other people who working here and somehow it, it takes on a life of its own. And I mean, I can imagine going from that place of forming the network and I guess then there's been such an explosion I would say in the last few years just in terms of I think recognition. There's been action, but there's also I guess that sort of people coming to a sort of, I don't want to use the word awakening, but I'm going to use it because it's 10 o'clock in the morning. I can't think of another word

05:18 That sort of, I suppose people's eyes being open to, hold on a second, that we've been very blinkered to how the outdoors is portrayed, I suppose in one sense. And also how people feel in terms of their access in terms of whether they feel that there is a space for them if they don't look like those pictures we see in the media or even just out on the hills aware of roters. And I just wondered how that has impacted on the work that you do. What are some of the challenges maybe that come alongside that? Cause I think there's huge benefits, but also I would imagine some challenges too as things grow and change. And I'd just be really interested in your take and perspective on it as well.

SORAYA: 06:10 Well, I guess the first thing to say is that I feel like I grew up very blinkered to the barriers that people face in terms of getting into the outdoors because I've always had access to it, and particularly the mum's side, my mum's side of the family very outdoorsy. So it took me a really long time and lots of people asking me, because I look different to a lot of people that you see within outdoor spaces or traditionally you would see within outdoor spaces to realise that this was a problem. And I sit firmly in my privilege when I talk about that. I'm aware that is, that's my privilege and my space, but I felt like I wasn't doing enough to answer the questions, which is why I ended up doing my own personal work. And then that developed into what all the elements is today in terms of the awakening, there's a lot,

NICKI: 07:08 I'm not that word in your head now.

SORAYA: 07:09 I know now can't get rid of it. In terms of the awakening, I mean I think there's a few things there. Firstly, there were always people, I've always been in the outdoor sector, there were always people in the outdoor sector from these underrepresented groups. The access is less for those groups, but I think we also need to talk about the fact that there hasn't been the representation. Our work has just not been amplified in the same way. And so that's not been out there in the world. But yes, I feel like there was an awakening, especially with Covid, and there was an explosion of groups. What that means for all the elements is that we have a huge amount of demand for what we do and for support and all of those sorts of things. And that need for community as well. But that also means we have an amazing community. I can't even tell you, I get so excited when I talk about them because they are just some of the most wonderful people I've ever met in my entire life. And they are really out there changing the reality for individuals, but also just changing the sector as a whole. And so the, I'm going to keep using the word awakening, it's really exciting for me. So that's

NICKI: 08:32 Going to be the title. It's

SORAYA: 08:34 Going to call the

NICKI: 08:34 Title of my podcast now. Yeah,

SORAYA: 08:36 Yeah, sorry, the

NICKI: 08:37 Awakening. Yeah,

SORAYA: 08:39 No, it is so, it's so exciting. It means that we are in a really exciting time where I feel like people are starting to find their communities around them to be able to access these outdoor spaces and also have the confidence and also see role models. And I just can't wait to see what's next.

NICKI: 09:01 Amazing. I mean, I think my next question is really related to that as well, because I think guess when form a community, then there are the benefits that you would expect to come from that which are being connected to other people and other amazing people and all the work that they're doing. I guess when you look back, I guess over the last few years and think, well, this is the sort of idea once it started to form that I, and this is where I thought it would go, and these are the benefits. So I thought would bring, what have been some of those unexpected benefits that you just got? I had literally no idea this was going to happen, but it's been one of the most fulfilling amazing parts of this whole experience.

SORAYA: 09:43 So when I originally set it up, I thought there would be a lot of peer-to-peer learning across diversity areas. That was one of my, it was so important to me that it was intersectional. And I was thinking about it in a very practical sense actually. Originally I was like, yeah, how can we share best practise? How can we start changing diversity in all of these different outdoor activities and sports and conservation, but do it in this intersectional way? I think what did surprise me because working in the diversity space is hard. It's hard. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of emotional labour. What surprised me is actually the positive energy that the group has and how much they show up for each other, even though they're all incredibly busy, they have so many things going on. A lot of people in the community have day jobs and they do these projects outside of their day jobs, but they're still willing to jump in on a thread in our WhatsApp community talking about which is the best bank account, or they're really happy to be connected to somebody else and have a one-on-one conversation to talk them through a process that they found really hard.

11:02 But actually they've like now got it absolutely down and they know how it goes. And so I don't want to say make it sound like I had lost my faith in people, so just to clarify that, but I think it has renewed my faith in people in terms of there are so many good people out there doing amazing things. And I was expecting this to be very, almost quite business-like and transactional. And I feel like we are, a lot of the people in the community are friends now, are connected to other people, feel very held within that space. And that surprised me. And also I just love it so much and I can't take credit for that. That's the people who show up that the people who show up in that space. It's actually got nothing to do with me. I just brought to, I just had this idea of connecting people and then the way that they show up is what makes the community amazing.

NICKI: 12:05 It's really interesting, isn't it that point about that you can consider something from a practical aspect. And I see it all the time in my work as well, that we think about particularly when it comes to bringing new, bringing change, bringing something new into place. And we think about because the practicalities are the bits in a way that we can control, I guess. Yes, like you said, and also really needed. It's really important to have those structures and things, but so often where the magic lies, where the power comes from is in that emotional connection and it's really hard to plan for. But it's like you said, the bit that you just go. And I suppose that must be also what keeps you doing the work in a way. Because like you said, if it is challenging, it is hard. There is so much work and there is so much to do that that's the driver.

SORAYA: 12:54 And it is, like you say, it is impossible to plan for because you have no idea what's going to come out. And every time I do an event, something different happens. Something different evolves out of it. When people connect to each other, what they then go off and do together is so broad. But it does make it exciting and it does make it incredibly rewarding, but it's still hard work. It's still hard work. I was reading one of those, I love a, well, you'll know because you said you follow me on Instagram, but I love a quote, I do love a quote, like an inspirational quote. Yeah, I love looking

NICKI: 13:30 Quotes as well. Yeah,

SORAYA: 13:31 Yeah. And I saw one the other day that was, it wasn't so much a quote, it was somebody talking about it that had been shared saying you can love your work and you can love what you do, but that doesn't mean that you don't get tired and you don't sometimes want time off. So I mean, it's something which I'm trying to champion more this year. And the community, like I say, quite often have jobs, they're doing these projects around their jobs, have families have all of these other caring responsibilities, all of these other things going on. And I'm trying to champion all of us, including myself, taking more rest time and being able to say, Hey, I love you. I really do love you and everything you're doing, but it's going to have to wait till Tuesday because right now I can't fit anymore in. So yes,

NICKI: 14:25 No, and I think it's such an important point around that purpose can drives us and the more that purpose seems to resonate and to support other people that drives. But purpose is such a do double-edged sword when it comes to of our resilience and sustainability. I think in terms of actually where do I draw those boundaries? Where do I take a break? Is it okay for me to do that and how do I support others doing that too and say, it's almost like you have to give people permission. You have to give yourself permission to do it. Yes. And I think what else it sounds to, I know you said, well, I haven't done anything, it's sort of everybody else, but there's something I think very intangible but critical about being able to hold a space and being able to hold a space that feels that it gives people permission, that it gives people safety, that I think psychological safety is talked about a lot, but that it's really hard to describe what it is, but when you feel it, that's when all the work that you are doing can unfold, if that makes sense.

SORAYA: 15:30 Yeah, it's an, that's another thing that I feel like there are rules around it obviously that you could read about curating safe spaces, but for me it is another very intangible thing. And so yes, of course creating a safe space, making people feel welcome, all of those things. But I think what I come back to a lot is I'm definitely not the only person who can do that. There are lots of people who can do that. And the people within the community also hold those safe spaces for their own communities, right? So in a lot of ways they know how to operate within a safe space anyway. And it's, yes, you need something to gather around, I get that. But I am always really hesitant. I take responsibility for my role in creating it. Of course, I think we all need to celebrate those things more, but I don't want to take too much responsibility because really I can't even explain how amazing the community are.

16:45 And I have a whole group of people who volunteer on and off and help me with different things as well. And I often talk about the fact that originally I felt really uncomfortable being the spokesperson for everybody. But obviously it's tricky to get 300 people on a podcast to talk about what they're doing and how everything works. So I try to put people forward as much as possible. I had a conversation this morning actually with a festival and the organiser is lovely. And she said to me, every time we talk about this, you put other people forward and then you are not talking about all the elements, but all the elements is the organisation that's actually putting all these people in the spotlight. And I said, I know, I know, but let me just tell you about this other person who's epic and is doing this thing.

17:34 Because I feel like that's the whole point. We amplify each other and put each other into these spaces. So it's it, it's just super interesting. I find it really, really interesting. But I just really want to give them the credit that they deserve because a lot of these community leaders and individuals working in the space don't get the credit that they deserve for the work they're doing. They're just doing amazing work. So if I can help by bringing people together on providing that space, then amazing. But I don't want it to be become about me because it's never been about me. The it's about the community.

NICKI: 18:10 I suppose it goes back to that point you made at the beginning about how this work has always been going on. I know from one of my previous guests, Pam, and she was saying, I've been doing this work since the nineties, not that it's not been there, it's just that now the focus seems to be on it, and that's very nice, but I'm still doing the work and yeah, I can see that. So I mean, you've created this incredible community of which has been co-created by the people that then have become involved in it and have grown it with you. I guess, what are your next steps when you think about, okay, this is either where I'd like to take all the elements or something else that I've got in mind, where are you thinking of going?

SORAYA: 18:57 Oh, that's a big question. It sounds a

NICKI: 18:59 Big, you can break it down if you, you can pick the next sort of three months. I don't mind.

SORAYA: 19:05 Yeah, a really interesting, actually, you've hit me at a really interesting time with all the elements to ask that question. So we have had over the last two coming up to three years, it'll be three years in August. We've had bits and pieces of funding. We also do consultancy work, so we make money that way. But I'm keen to get in a bigger piece of funding to build a team because I think once we have that team in place, then the impact we can make is huge. And I can see it, I can almost like touch it. So I'm in the process of trying to sort that out. And then personally and well, and also talking about all the elements, there are certain things, so the needs of the community change all the time, which is really interesting. So we evolve and develop depending on that.

19:58 So I can't tell you exactly where we are going to be even in three months or in a year, but I can tell you that it's all responsive to whatever the community asks for. So at the moment, we're working on some speaker series events, which is really exciting. We're working on some capacity building related resilience events with the Y H A. All of these are going to be online. And then we are thinking about in-person gatherings and how to make those really special and meaningful and what that can mean because that's a personal interest of mine and I kind of forgot that it's my organisation, so I can also do some of these things that I want to do.

20:46 I got distracted in the first, and you do need to do that at the beginning is sometimes we have big organisations come and ask us to do consultancy or do certain pieces of work, and I have taken on a lot of that, but I don't necessarily enjoy it. So it has to be the right organisation, the right type of consultancy. Now for me to do that. So I need to open up space for these other things that the community do want. Gathering in person is something that people have been saying since we launched, but we launched in August, 2020, so we are like, oh

NICKI: 21:19 Gosh, yeah, central.

SORAYA: 21:22 Yeah. So it's something that we've started doing in-person events last year. I would love to do more of that and really help these leaders develop, which also ties into my coaching practise and all of those sorts of things, which then is my personal side. So we've got all the elements is, and we are going to have hopefully have an advisory board in for all the elements, an official one as well, so that it is more community led, which is also really exciting. And then my own work, I've spent so much time now building all the elements and repping everyone. I want to find my own voice. I have quite strong opinions on a lot of different activism related topics, and I want to be able to put that out in the world too. I want to be going back to writing, I want to be interviewing activist, working across all spaces, not just in the outdoor space, but across all spaces, all different approaches. So yeah, there's an exciting thing going on over there too. And all the elements are super exciting as well. So it just feel a bit overwhelmed with how all the things that could be going on right now.

NICKI: 22:36 Yeah, it does sound like a lot. I mean, I'll give you that and I can see why you thought it was quite a big question as well now when I reflects on it. But

SORAYA: 22:45 I think the thing is is that it does sound like a lot, but for me, this is actually a very paired down version of my life because I started all the elements when I was working and I was also doing a lot of personal writing, freelance writing. And so until the end of last year, I was still doing my day job two days a week. And so now it's all my time. So although it sounds like a lot, it's actually less for me. So this is me focusing,

NICKI: 23:17 It's all relative at the end of the day. Yeah, no, and I think from what you were saying as well, that it's also interconnected that actually I think when you start separating it out, it can actually almost, it's that different bits complement each other and that allow those other bits to grow and develop or provide space for them as well. So no, it does sound super exciting and yet really look forward to seeing where it goes. And I just was wondering if you sort of reflect back, I suppose, on even prior to founding all the elements and your own path and I guess growth within the outdoors and adventures and your own personal love, I suppose of that. If somebody's listening to this and just, I don't even know how to get started, I don't know what the first step is to take, even if it's just an everyday adventure, I want to get out and try something new mean, what's the one piece of advice you would give them?

SORAYA: 24:22 One piece of advice is tough. I think, and I say this a lot about lots of different things and I say it for different reasons, but I keep saying to people, find your people. That is I think, the most important thing. And there's a lot of things that are interconnected with that because sometimes it depends on where you live as to how accessible finding people in person is. But you can still find people online. There are lots of really exciting online communities that you can join and get involved with and get inspired by. I mean, I'm in a women's bike packing community on Facebook, and I don't really use Facebook very much, but when I go on there, I get super excited to see people posting, saying, Hey, I'm going on my first bike packing trip. I need to know what to pack. I need to know you can find those people online.

25:25 And there's another connected thing, which is being brave about that and not worrying about being bad at things, which is, this is something which I'm an expert at. I'm really great at being terrible at things and not caring because I think there's a whole freedom to that. And actually when I was younger, I used to do things up to the point where people would try and make me take exams in them and then I would stop them because I didn't want to do that bit. I was like, no, no, no, no. I would just start a new instrument entirely. I don't want to do my level one, whatever. So I just love it. There is no expectation. Everyone's been a beginner. And so joining something as a complete beginner is great. All I would say. So it's getting over that every initial hurdle, once you've done it, you can get addicted to it. I think there's a book about it actually, which I think, which I haven't read but is on my to-do list to read. It's called something like the Joy of Being a Beginner. I'm like, I'm all about it.

NICKI: 26:31 Oh my gosh. So have to read that because I can totally relate to that. Being slightly addicted and being faint, frankly, quite terrible at a lot of things that I try. But like you said, it's great. Yeah, that just exploring. And I think there's a really good point about having the courage to be that person who's rubbish and to be able to cope with that feeling of, okay, I may never actually be any good at this. I might be at best be slightly average, but that's not really the driver behind it. And can I sit without feeling? And I think we're so out of practise at it. I think it's something that's just not celebrated in society as a whole, and it's a shame.

SORAYA: 27:13 It is not celebrated. It is a real shame. I mean, I still struggle with it. I'm not very good at, I'm very good at being a beginner, very good at being a beginner. If I get to the point where I am average, then I'm like, oh, maybe I could do this as my career.

NICKI: 27:32 Yes,

SORAYA: 27:34 There's a switch in my brain somewhere that says, you could make money from this. You could do. And I realistically, most things I could not. So also, it's not actually accurate. I'm not going to become the next CrossFit Games champion. That's not going to happen for me. But I think there's always this struggle because we are taught to make things valuable and productive and all of those things. And we need to get away from that really. Why can we not? I paint and I make things. Why can we not just do that for the fun of making them really, there's an interesting thing there around capitalism and a productivity based market that doesn't allow us to just enjoy things for the sake of enjoying them. And as somebody who has constantly struggled with also body type and exercise and all of those things, it's been a whole learning for me to say, you can just walk and sit.

28:44 You actually don't need to do, oh no, if I'm going for a walk, well, I need to make sure that I burn enough calories, so I need to make sure that I'm walking like a certain distance at a certain speed to make sure, no, you don't have to do that. You don't have to. And no one is actually monitoring you. It's your life. You have to live it the way that you want to live it and experience it the way that you want to experience it. And we don't take enough time to work out what that means for ourselves, I don't think.

NICKI: 29:10 Yeah, I mean I think there is a whole nother podcast in this, quite frankly. I could keep talking about this for hours I think. But I think you hit on that point about that tension, and I think it's again, thinking, well, I should just be able to go for a walk and not be thinking about all of this stuff and therefore I'm getting it wrong, going for a walk because not only I'm not going for a walk and not being present in the moment of being for a war, but now I'm getting it wrong by thinking about, oh God, that will burn off that Mars bar. I just say, or whatever. Yeah. So it becomes this sort of, I mean, you can see how you get your brain in this place where you just feel constantly bad about the choices or the existence that you have rather than, like you said, actually going, you know what, there is, there's a reality that I live in this society. I live in a world that prizes certain things and I'm not immune and I operate within with groups, but actually if I can at least be aware of it, I might be able to get five minutes or I can just admire the sea and not be, and just allow myself to take that moment, like you said. Yeah, which can be so powerful. Sara, that's been so amazing. If people want to find out more about you, about the work that you are doing, where can they go?

SORAYA: 30:18 So if you would like to find out more about all the elements, you can check out our website, which is all the elements.co. There's no.co.uk because people always think there is, but there isn't. And on Instagram, all the elements all is one word underscore at the end. And then for me personally, you can find me as Soraya Earth on Instagram, on Twitter, and also my website is soray.earth too.

NICKI: 30:50 So fantastic. And I'll pop all of those in the show notes as well so people can go and find you really easily and start stalking you like I did. It's been just to leave on a really awkward uncomfortable note. It's been so much fun chatting to you. Honestly, I got to get this conversation going for ages. I'm really conscious the I'm at my time, so I'm going to leave you and that you go to your next meeting. But thank you so much for your time today. It's been really appreciated and very best of luck with all the exciting things you've got coming up. Can't wait to see where they go.

SORAYA: 31:20 Thank you, and thank you so much for having me.

NICKI: 31:23 Take care. Bye. So a massive thank you to Soraya for talking to me and for such a wonderful conversation and episode, and I hope you enjoyed that chat as much as I did. There are so many different points I could pick up on this week. As I was listening back, I was thinking the discussion around purpose and when we drive ourselves and that sort of double-edged sword that can come from keeping going. And there was also a huge big point around doing things just for the pure pleasure of doing them, for the joy of learning something rather than for needing to be really good at it or for stepping out of our comfort zone and being frankly a bit rubbish at things and how that makes us feel. And I know I've covered that in previous episodes as well, and I think I just wanted to reflect this with the point sort of linked into this sort of idea around achievement that we have and how celebrated and even sort of venerated, idolise the idea of achievement is within our society and how that dictates our choices, how it dictates how we feel about ourselves and how we internalise that in terms of that we should be doing things that we're not enough, that what we are doing is not enough and how that then manifests in the activities that we choose to do in the way in which we choose to live our lives and take risks or not as the case may be.

33:05 And I just sort of wanted to reflect on the fact that of whether there is a different way, and one of the reasons, and I suppose it's important to me because one of the reasons I started this podcast was yes, to celebrate the achievements of the incredible guests as I've been so fortunate to speak to. But more than that, to think about actually how the process of living adventurously, of making adventurous choices has supported them in their lives and helped them to supported them in terms of their wellbeing, helped them to feel more connected, to be able to move, to be able to enjoy what they're capable of doing, but also to just, I guess, exist in a way that feels positive and energised and hopeful and that how sometimes that positivity and energy can be sapped when we just feel that whatever we do isn't enough.

34:10 And even though we might do a hundred things or we might do one thing one day, there's always something else more we could be doing. There's something else that someone else is doing that's better, higher, steeper, more than what we are and where that leaves us feeling. And I suppose it's going back to that place of actually, if we start from a place of we are enough that actually even without the adventures, without the achievements, without anything, we can show up and we are okay where we are. And then the adventure becomes a about how we navigate the opportunities, the spaces, the connections that we encounter in our lives, whether we embrace them, whether we move away from them for fear of things going wrong or for fear of rejection or for fear of failure. And so therefore the adventure becomes much less about achievement, about an end goal, about the end of a journey or the top of a mountain.

35:16 And it becomes much more about a way of living our lives, which is about openness, it's about looking forward, it's about hope. So yeah, those are my reflections this week. I would love to know what you think. I don't think I got to necessarily any great conclusion, but I think it's really important to reflect on that. And as somebody who can very much suffer from feeling like need more needs to happen, I need to do more. I should be doing this or I should be doing that. I think it's really important for me also just to pause and reflect on where sometimes that might be coming from. But yeah, please do reach out if any of this has resonated with you. If anything that came up in the conversation has resonated with you, I would love to know. So please do reach out and get in touch. You can find me on Instagram resilience work or Everyday Adventure pod. You can get in contact via my web website, resilience work.co.uk. You can find me on LinkedIn, Nikki Bass. I would li love to hear from you. And yes, other than that, I will be back soon again with another incredible guest to share with you. And until then, I hope you have a wonderful adventurous May, as May it may not be May when you're listening to this. But a wonderful adventures few weeks and I will speak to you very soon. Take care. Bye.